Moving Forward: ProtoKupo!

Kupopolis Related Forums Project Development
1

In my mind, the next step is to spool up some sort of rudimentary system to allow veterans to access their old posts from the Kupopolis DB. I’m calling this project the ProtoKupo.

Here are my initial thoughts on the matter:

Step 1: we get an opt-in to the ProtoKupo DB, or if there is any work they’d want off the bat removed (for example, I want to redact some of my Neo posts, thems were dark times).

Step 2: I develop an initial ProtoKupo app. This app would be password protected, and would simply list the user’s posts on login, to which they can edit or mark for redaction or approval to the full build.

Step 3: Phase 2 of ProtoKupo begins, where after login you’re essentially looking at a searchable DB of the old Kupopolis Posts. You can read other’s stories, and create bookmarks. I’d like to also fold in the kupopolis Archives and add some smart search features.

Step 4: ProtoKupo transitions to a fully fledged Kupopolis archive that’s available to the public. I’d REALLY love to add a 2-3 documentary video of us talking about kupop and its history, so if random people stumble upon the site they’d get a quick understanding of what it is, and maybe even decide to read some of it! I mean seriously guys, how many people have ran a continuous fanfiction world for 15+ years?

Keep in mind that making a website from scratch is a bit of an effort, and I have a bunch of other obligations, so it may take a while between steps. Worst case scenario we have it all up by the end of the year. I’m going to start fuddling with the db right now and see if I can get a laravel build of it working and displays table data. (prior updates to Kupop’s framework had been stalled simply from not having a understanding of the layout of the database. Since I now have a copy of the database I can try and “crunch some code, bro!”)

What are your thoughts? I feel like I may want to defer to Tex’s experiences for Step 1.

2

Well… I have issues with steps 1 and 4.

Well, wait a minute. We’d talked about giving the writers password-protected access before, but redactions?

I think we should leave the database as-is, with all of the shitty mistakes of our youth preserved. It’s only fair: that way everyone has equal access to blackmail material against everyone else. (and yes, EVERYONE has stuff on the boards that they’re not proud of. But that’s life: you can’t redact life, and just because we have the ability to edit the record of what our story was, doesn’t mean we should)

[quote]Step 4: ProtoKupo transitions to a fully fledged Kupopolis archive that’s available to the public. I’d REALLY love to add a 2-3 documentary video of us talking about kupop and its history, so if random people stumble upon the site they’d get a quick understanding of what it is, and maybe even decide to read some of it! I mean seriously guys, how many people have ran a continuous fanfiction world for 15+ years?
[/quote]

This seems to be exactly what some people didn’t want: availability to the public. I think we should continue to control and limit access, even after we resurrect our old boards into archival form. Maybe the new story can have greater accessibility, but the archives should be restricted to only those who are writing members. Or, just members, anyway.

Them’s my 2¢.

3

By redactions, I mean deletions from the DB. Bad choice of words on my part. I don’t want to put anything up online that they’d really prefer not to have online for a long period of time, even if its password protected and hidden away in a database. Sorry, I didn’t mean editing the copy, but more like a checklist of what to keep, what to toss.

Some people had mention they were trying to clean up their online presence, and I’d like to respect that. Plus its pretty much standard procedure to allow people access for removal of content these days.

Cool. My thinking was “Hey, once its this cleaned up, let’s share it!” I’m down for keeping it permanently on lockdown too, especially if we decide to go the multiple IS route.

4

Even so, I feel really strongly that this should not be the case. While, in principle, everyone has the right to creative control over what they’ve written, and how it’s distributed, we’ve entered into a pretty unique contract with each other as co-authors of a shared story. While not every post is necessarily part of an intricately inter-woven fabric, many posts are, and as we try to reassemble an archive for our own benefit moving forward, anyone who tries to exclude anything from going into that archive has the potential to threaten that archive’s integrity. What if a post that’s on someone’s checklist is a significant appearance of an important character, or presages an important event? These are valid considerations, at least as valid as any one writer’s desire to conceal past Kupopolis activity.

lol I think Tex’s justification for leaving Facebook is not quite the same as deleting past story posts from an IS. There are steps we can take to keep our boards from the general public. Restricting access to the archive is one step. Maybe we can alter post authorship in some way as the database goes up; an author anonymizer, or a system of aliases.

As we’ve illustrated a bunch of times just discussing how the new site should work, “standard procedure” doesn’t really apply to Kupopolis. We’re basically writing these rules as we go along.

I sorta thought this was always the best way to go, a way to compromise between people who want an intact archive and people who want to keep their old posts off of internet searches.

5

As it happens, this is quite literally my job, so I’m putting on the professional hat for a second; that said, this is not a professional environment so some issues don’t apply, and please don’t feel I’m saying we should live up to archival best practices. I’m putting out what I know and what best practices are. I’ll make recommendations towards the end.

I’m working on the non-technical end of a very similar project with somewhat similar issues, regarding the long-term preservation of syllabi used by professors at an institution in electronic databases and, possibly, shared online. Syllabi are considered the intellectual property of the creator who is usually the professor (for instance, Rawley probably has syllabi saved, and he could use them at any institution). In general, archives let creators determine a few things:

a) whether the material is preserved in the first place, but we always try to preserve it for all time because once it’s gone, it’s gone, so we usually strongly recommend saving everything
b) whether the material is accessible, and by who

Access does not always equate “everyone” or “only a few.” For example, some Native American repositories lock materials to certain tribal authorities and individuals – like some materials can’t be seen by men or by women due to their traditions. Sometimes, access is locked based on time; there’s papers stored by a founder of the League of Women’s Voters that can’t be seen for 75 years after her death. Sometimes, it’s locked to the persons involved; my institution has a mental hospital’s records, and because they have patient data, only the donor and us can look at them. The donor and repository work together to establish who can access what and when. Not all items in a group of materials have to be the same.

So, all that said…

What I suggest is not deleting anything from the database, but set up a few levels of access, which I’ll detail below. Why shouldn’t we delete things? People change their minds sometimes; maybe the author wants to read the document; maybe they wanna share with one or two people, briefly. Have it there, but it may not be accessible. Then, we have levels of access:

Private: Only the author can see it.
Limited: Specific people the author designates can see it.
Shared: All members of the Kupopolis community can see it.
Public: Everyone can see it.

The author would set this, with the default – I suggest – being Shared. This can include the people who’ve not voiced an opinion, and theirs should likely stay this way until they say so. This, I think, respects peoples’ wishes without scrapping things – and people could open it up if, say, someone asked and wanted to reference a locked post.

6

[quote=“Tex”]What I suggest is not deleting anything from the database, but set up a few levels of access, which I’ll detail below. Why shouldn’t we delete things? People change their minds sometimes; maybe the author wants to read the document; maybe they wanna share with one or two people, briefly. Have it there, but it may not be accessible. Then, we have levels of access:

Private: Only the author can see it.
Limited: Specific people the author designates can see it.
Shared: All members of the Kupopolis community can see it.
Public: Everyone can see it.

The author would set this, with the default – I suggest – being Shared. This can include the people who’ve not voiced an opinion, and theirs should likely stay this way until they say so. This, I think, respects peoples’ wishes without scrapping things – and people could open it up if, say, someone asked and wanted to reference a locked post.[/quote]

In principle, I like the idea of this compromise. However, I dislike the idea of a “private” setting… Basically I dislike the idea of any setting more restrictive than “Shared” in the example above. But if there are people who genuinely feel the need for something like this (and, again, I don’t think we’ve heard from anyone here who feels this way), I can get behind it if that’s the case.

7

[quote=“Scen”][quote=“Tex”]What I suggest is not deleting anything from the database, but set up a few levels of access, which I’ll detail below. Why shouldn’t we delete things? People change their minds sometimes; maybe the author wants to read the document; maybe they wanna share with one or two people, briefly. Have it there, but it may not be accessible. Then, we have levels of access:

Private: Only the author can see it.
Limited: Specific people the author designates can see it.
Shared: All members of the Kupopolis community can see it.
Public: Everyone can see it.

The author would set this, with the default – I suggest – being Shared. This can include the people who’ve not voiced an opinion, and theirs should likely stay this way until they say so. This, I think, respects peoples’ wishes without scrapping things – and people could open it up if, say, someone asked and wanted to reference a locked post.[/quote]

In principle, I like the idea of this compromise. However, I dislike the idea of a “private” setting… Basically I dislike the idea of any setting more restrictive than “Shared” in the example above. But if there are people who genuinely feel the need for something like this (and, again, I don’t think we’ve heard from anyone here who feels this way), I can get behind it if that’s the case.[/quote]

Actually, let me amend that: do we really want a “public” setting for the archive?

8

My feeling is no, but I like it being there because me-in-ten-years may feel yes.

Or, like, say we have a quick and dirty Kupop Primer there or something. It’d be an option, even if it’s never used.

9

By ‘standard procedure’ I’m referring to my experience in making websites that deal with user generated content. The wiki has always come with a privacy policy built in, so I’m not too afraid of that. Since we never have any legalese that says “Kupopolis LLC. owns the right to your work”, we have to have a means for removal. We’re not a company or even a legal organization, so that means I’m currently liable for hosting the content. I’d still like some sort of permission prior to pushing it all up someplace that the original writer may not know about, even if we go with Gabe’s nice suggestion of different tiers of access.

10

My understanding – and this kind of thing is notoriously murky (my institution’s use agreement for the stuff in our holdings is basically “yeah, you’re on your own”) – if you have a removal option, you’re usually fine. You’re right, we should have it built-in just in case. I really doubt anyone would sue over it, but I think it would be much better to be ready to take it down at their request so you don’t have the risk of legal trouble.

11

Mike, it’s very rare that I am able to say anything with 100% certainty, but I feel comfortable saying the following: I GUARANTEE you that NO ONE who is currently, or has been in the past, associated with Kupopolis will EVER sue you or exploit your “liability.”

I happen to know that you’ve had experiences in your career that may have soured you on people in general, but it’s like you said earlier: this is a place where friends gather. I, personally, don’t like the idea of removing items from the database, but I don’t have the ability to stop someone who feels really strongly about it from speaking up and saying “Hey, I’d like this post removed please.” You’re right that we aren’t a company or legal entity, so why do we have to be so formal about things? We’re discussing putting up an archive right here; shouldn’t that be sufficient notice?

12

[quote=“Scen”]Mike, it’s very rare that I am able to say anything with 100% certainty, but I feel comfortable saying the following: I GUARANTEE you that NO ONE who is currently, or has been in the past, associated with Kupopolis will EVER sue you or exploit your “liability.”

I happen to know that you’ve had experiences in your career that may have soured you on people in general, but it’s like you said earlier: this is a place where friends gather. I, personally, don’t like the idea of removing items from the database, but I don’t have the ability to stop someone who feels really strongly about it from speaking up and saying “Hey, I’d like this post removed please.” You’re right that we aren’t a company or legal entity, so why do we have to be so formal about things? We’re discussing putting up an archive right here; shouldn’t that be sufficient notice?[/quote]

I definitely agree, Matt, but I think that the risk is less with the regulars or even the friends of the story who never wrote that much (Rawley, D4). The risk is the people who were one-post wonders, who wrote briefly for four months, who came and went. I doubt they would, but… I’d also rather be safe? It’s exceedingly unlikely, but the risk is high, and they haven’t been contacted (nor…could we contact everyone ever involved).

13

No, I’m definitely going to sue everyone in this place. Who has the most money? Let’s do this.

14

… Spoon. He’s the one in charge. You should definitely sue him.

15

[quote=“Tex”][quote=“Scen”]Mike, it’s very rare that I am able to say anything with 100% certainty, but I feel comfortable saying the following: I GUARANTEE you that NO ONE who is currently, or has been in the past, associated with Kupopolis will EVER sue you or exploit your “liability.”

I happen to know that you’ve had experiences in your career that may have soured you on people in general, but it’s like you said earlier: this is a place where friends gather. I, personally, don’t like the idea of removing items from the database, but I don’t have the ability to stop someone who feels really strongly about it from speaking up and saying “Hey, I’d like this post removed please.” You’re right that we aren’t a company or legal entity, so why do we have to be so formal about things? We’re discussing putting up an archive right here; shouldn’t that be sufficient notice?[/quote]

I definitely agree, Matt, but I think that the risk is less with the regulars or even the friends of the story who never wrote that much (Rawley, D4). The risk is the people who were one-post wonders, who wrote briefly for four months, who came and went. I doubt they would, but… I’d also rather be safe? It’s exceedingly unlikely, but the risk is high, and they haven’t been contacted (nor…could we contact everyone ever involved).[/quote]

… I think the risk of any of these people finding us again is equally high… which is to say almost none at all.

As far as any of these one-hit wonders know, the site where they originally posted their material (kupopolis.com) is still alive and well and totally not more infected than a randy sailor. When they originally posted their material, the interface itself came with a “delete post” button right there on every single posting window. If in, say, five years? Wandering Writer #2 comes back to kupopolis.com, all they’ll potentially see is that we’ve changed the look of things a little bit, added that splash/landing page we always used to talk about, and that you now need a login/pass just in order to be able to see any of the content.

My point is this: if what we end up doing is putting all the content, as it originally went up, back in the same place where everyone put it (at kupopolis.com), is any of this liability talk even an issue? Especially since, if we maintain a format that looks anything like the old Sliver BB interface (which, as BB interfaces go, has all the standard bells and whistles), a given author always has, and will always have, the option to delete a post on their own?

16

Thanks guys for hearing my concerns!

I went to grab a burger to think about it, and I remembered in a past project I worked on where we were collecting user photos for an unspecified reason, the legal team had us put a removal request form. If they specified an email that was in the database, the associated content would be qued for deletion by an admin after a confirmation email. Similar to what tex said.

I think that with settings tex mentioned minus the public option, and we should he good.

Also, let’s sue Soon!

17

[quote=“michael”]Thanks guys for hearing my concerns!

I went to grab a burger to think about it, and I remembered in a past project I worked on where we were collecting user photos for an unspecified reason, the legal team had us put a removal request form. If they specified an email that was in the database, the associated content would be qued for deletion by an admin after a confirmation email. Similar to what tex said.

I think that with settings tex mentioned minus the public option, and we should he good.

Also, let’s sue Soon![/quote]

That’ll cover us! Have a request for deletion; it’s fairly standard in archives, too. We won’t be using any of this for income generation so a lot of it’s fine.

18

Well while you’re talking this out I’d like to refer y’all to http://www.kupopolis.com/Sliver3/pages/index.php

Which is to say we do still have everything.

19

Holy hell. It’s safe, too? No evil malicious code? I wasn’t sure how that worked.

20

Well god damn.